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hey guys Jay novela here simple question

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where will you be this November because

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I know I'm going to be at the Australian

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skeptics national convention in Sydney

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and so will all the rest of us from the

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skeptics guide to the universe including

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George Rob and Dick Smith and dr. Karl

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and dr. Reggie and lots of other awesome

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people why aren't you going did you not

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sign up yet get on there and sign up

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this is going to be some epic stuff here

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you don't want to miss it go to skeptics

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com au forward slash convention welcome

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to the skeptic zone the pub caused from

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 292 292 300 is not so far

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away for the 25th of May 2014 Richard

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Saunders here with you from Sydney

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Australia what's coming up on this

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week's episode we're going to kick off

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with a little bit from just last night

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here in Sydney we had the Australian

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skeptics dinner we have them four times

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a year lovely buffet dinner with what

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did we have we had curried prawns and we

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had sort of ricin and Asian noodle type

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dish and our beef and ham and vegetables

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and dumb thanks Lee I think I better

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start running downstairs for the fridge

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straight away we had a really great

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night know a good crowd turned up to

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hear dr. Cameron Webb talk about blood

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sucking insects and mosquitoes it was

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really really interesting so some little

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bits and pieces from the dinner

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including an interview with Tim mendham

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the editor of the skeptic magazine and

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tim is going to be telling us what's

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coming up in the next issue something to

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look forward to for those lucky people

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who subscribe to the skeptic following

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that it's evidence please with Joe

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alabaster Joe visits Canberra skeptics

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in the pub and talks to andrew gould

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about many things including Jeff wags

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college of curiosity and a new crews

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coming up Jeff is putting together and

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then Joe we'll talk to Ken MacLeod long

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time campaigner against the

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anti-vaccination crowd and Ken will tell

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us a little bit more about stop the

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avian following that it's a week in

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science from the Royal Institution of

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Australia RI a u.s. dog today you and

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just the other night thank you to Paul

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Willis the director of the Royal

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Institution of Australia I am attended

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the science of Doctor Who the show

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that's traveling around Australia at the

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moment and what a fun night that was one

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of the great things about the shows they

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encouraged you to use your mobile device

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take

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photographs tweet and participate in the

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show with live interactive polls and

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things like that our great fun time

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travel regeneration black holes yeah the

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science of Doctor Who well done royal

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institution of Australia and BBC then

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the round off the show it's a grain of

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salt with a run so give more reports

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from QED the convention in Manchester a

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little earlier on in the year this week

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we're on chat stew professor christopher

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french it's a really interesting

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interview going to hear Christopher

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French's our views on parapsychology in

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other news I've been filming some more

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interviews and clips for my upcoming

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little documentary the vaccination

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chronicle so looking back this has taken

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quite a long time around 18 months so

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far I'm certainly aiming to have it up

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before the amazing meeting in July this

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year and it's so nice that I remember

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that when I started this project people

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chipped in to help me buy some video

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editing equipment but more on that in

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the coming weeks now my friend Alison

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Smith who I mentioned last week who made

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a little a fan video for Doctor Who

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trying to raise funds to go to the UK

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from America to visit I am a Doctor Who

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convention you can check out her video

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at the time run calm she almost reached

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her goal people chipping in to send her

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to America thank you to all those people

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who have been kind enough to do that and

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if you haven't seen the time run check

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it out and thanks to get bonne terre in

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Belgium the winner of the cosmos packed

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some time ago I sent the pack over to

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him via see mail because the ml price

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was outrageous it took a couple of

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months but the cosmos packed arrived

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well that's all from me at the moment

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I'm gonna run downstairs have a look in

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the kitchen see if I can't find some

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bagels toast them up with cream cheese

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and smoked salmon well I'm enjoying that

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I hope you

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good evening thank you once again for

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coming to the skeptics dinner my name is

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Richard Saunders I'm the president of

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Australian skeptics ink on that table we

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have magicians going at the moment so

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the people on that paper a little bit

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distracted we have various committee

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members from the Australian skeptics

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community here with this tonight dr.

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rachel dunlop dr. AG vice president

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hello oh yes bigger things John Boehner

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boo sitting right beside hello Joe yes

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slightly less applause I'm not sure

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about that we have our treasurer Martin

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Hadley up back there yesterday yeah

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she's money hope Tim mendham our editor

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over there last of our public money

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always right Iran say give down the

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incidentally some of you may have know

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about the the organization the Friends

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of science and medicine who do a

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wonderful job as specifically targeting

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quackery and promoting good medicine if

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you have questions about friends of

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science and medicine and the good work

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they're doing Joe Mennie moon here is on

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the executive and at any time I'm sure

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she'll be happy to answer your questions

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or you can find out more about the

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Friends of science and medicine there's

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an organization that Australian skeptics

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quite happily support we've been having

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an interesting time likely in the

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Australian skeptics we've got at least

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two challenges on the Gotham up now as

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you know we have a hundred thousand

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dollar prize to the first person who can

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prove more or less their claim can soak

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and navigate the laws of physics or

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change our understanding of science

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basically it was set up originally for

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her

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oval water divining that sort of thing

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well we have a psychic in Victoria it

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was very interested and has come forward

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and is in negotiations at the moment

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with the Victorian skeptics to set up a

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test of her psychic ability she claims

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she can communicate with those who have

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passed over as if they were standing

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right there in the room which we find is

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a very interesting claim well she also

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claims she can do something called

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psychometry which is getting vibrations

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and feelings and mystical insights off

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personal objects so we're sort of

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angling to that sort of test if we give

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her objects watches or I don't know what

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hopefully she can tell us about the

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owner of that object but we'll see how

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that goes that report will be coming up

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in the skeptic magazine a full report

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when that happens we're not exactly sure

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how long that's going to take if you're

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not a subscriber to the skeptic magazine

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Tim who I think just fled the room

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because he always does when I I start to

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talk and Tim can help you out with

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subscriptions it's the second oldest

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skeptical journal in the world we think

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it's a corker we think it's certainly

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one of the best and it's a great way for

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you to show your superiors that's the

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man yeah we've been talking about you

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it's a wonderful way for you to show

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your support for what we do with the

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skeptics coming tonight is a wonderful

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way but subscribing to our magazine and

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encouraging your friends to subscribe to

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our magazine is a wonderful thing to do

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and as I said we think it's a good

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magazine we get reports from all around

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the world this one coming up Tim there's

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even a report by me i went to a

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paranormal convention a couple of weeks

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ago and i had to sit through talks on

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monsters and ghosts and everything but

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was a lot of fun that report coming up

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well the other claim we have or possible

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claim is somebody who says they've

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invented an over unity engine in other

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words this engine will produce more

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power than it consumes okay can't wait

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to see that one

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plug it into my car I tell you what the

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other ongoing exciting news of course is

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the Australian skeptics convention this

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year in chatswood on the 28th 29th and

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30th of November we're flying in all

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sorts of wonderful international guests

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for that I was only met up with dr. Cole

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so this give the other day for a catch

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up and he's very excited to be speaking

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at the Australian skeptics convention so

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it'll be great to see him we've got dr.

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Rachel be giving a talk of course we've

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got the skeptics guide to the universe

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people coming George Arab who is a very

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famous skeptical entertainer from the

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United States and lots of other people

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dick smith will be there and lots of

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other people get to be announced it's

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very exciting tickets are still

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available you can always find out more

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at our website or just by asking any of

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the committee members here tonight we

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hope we'll see you at the convention

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it's going to be a great convention and

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of course our ongoing as many of you

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know and many you come along to skeptics

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in the pub first thursday of every month

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at the crown hotel in the city very

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relaxed lots of good times lots of very

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interesting speakers we have it skeptics

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at the pub more information at our

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website we'll just ask anybody here I'm

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also delighted to say tonight we have to

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give aways some lucky person will be

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getting their dinner for free tonight a

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bit later on and another person will be

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getting courtesy of the national

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geographic channel a cosmos prize pack

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tonight consisting of the cosmos carry

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bag hello because most book by Carl

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Sagan and cosmos notepad so you can

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write your cosmos notes it if iceberg

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oh that's very kind of the National

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Geographic people it's obviously part of

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their own outreach and promotion but

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they gave us several copies of this

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little prize pack to give away and I

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been enjoying that the series immensely

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it's of course it's the reboot as it

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were from the original series in the

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1980s with Carl Sagan this time with

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Neil deGrasse Tyson being the host of

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the show well with the Australian

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skeptics dinner here in Sydney with a

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great talk tonight by dr. Cameron Webb

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about insects that bite you and suck

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your blood and mosquitoes and

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mosquito-borne viruses and things I with

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Tim mendham the editor of the skeptic

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magazine hello Tim hello they have

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Richard now what's coming up in the

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latest or the next issue i should say of

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the skeptic magazine we have a wonderful

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article written by someone not quite

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sure who it is a report on a paranormal

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convention really i bet we also have

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some incriminating photographs at the

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same person see sort of snuggling up to

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some paranormal Oh sexy so yes we got it

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mixed bag a because article talking

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about pet welfare check will and and

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animal welfare myths which is really

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weird actually that's an interesting

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topic actually bring ya ma put a few

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noses out of joint for that Seth so I

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always fun you know in my time I've seen

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devices for pets that would like the

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power beds except there are collars and

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things that didn't do anything no no

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this is actually also about how we treat

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animals oh and and and some of our

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impressions of anthropomorphism and big

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words like that I can't say that word I

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can't say they would I can't say istmas

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don't you go with isthmus I will so have

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articles about pseudoscience about the

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growth of pseudoscience and as was where

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the author describes at pseudoscience

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with teeth are asian sexy instead of

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getting very very nasty major

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implications we have articles about the

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other side about skepticism how to deal

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with pseudoscience we've got some

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definitions of that have put forward by

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pseudo-scientists and what they really

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mean we've got some websites to avoid

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oops I don't know here that's what's

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00:13:46,370 --> 00:13:44,910
cool actually but really that's what the

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00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:46,380
article called a very you must be psycho

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00:13:50,930 --> 00:13:49,260
I must say yes I am here what else we go

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00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:50,940
whole range of other staff fun trying to

307
00:13:54,650 --> 00:13:52,230
think actually you caught me off guard

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at the election oh you um you get a lot

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of contributions to the skeptic magazine

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coming in but you're always interested

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in in people having a go and writing

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articles or reports for the skeptic

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magazine absolutely i mean so I welcome

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any contributions actually Richard I'm

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in sort of always came to get a

316
00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:10,200
diversity of authors and a diversity of

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topics very much and like any editor of

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00:14:16,460 --> 00:14:14,910
any publication and we'd love to see

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things being submitted how many people

320
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:18,330
out there want to submit something to

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00:14:22,610 --> 00:14:20,310
you they can simply send you an email

322
00:14:24,050 --> 00:14:22,620
with their idea and you can sort of take

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00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:24,060
it from there so people out there don't

324
00:14:28,430 --> 00:14:26,250
be afraid don't think you'll never be

325
00:14:30,350 --> 00:14:28,440
published because you might you could

326
00:14:32,060 --> 00:14:30,360
see your name in print you could and on

327
00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:32,070
the big screen I'm gonna fix it okay the

328
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:33,150
best ways to actually send me an email

329
00:14:37,330 --> 00:14:35,370
first of all just in 10 words or less

330
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:37,340
I'd like to write an article about this

331
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:39,090
yeah when you might have covered it

332
00:14:42,620 --> 00:14:40,800
really recently so you save yourself the

333
00:14:45,230 --> 00:14:42,630
effort but it was a good idea i'll jump

334
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:45,240
at it and that's editor at skeptics

335
00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:47,130
accommodating that's the one and that's

336
00:14:54,260 --> 00:14:50,160
a spelt with a k we spill our skeptic to

337
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:54,270
the car and i'm just we're outside the

338
00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:55,890
dinner at the moment and on the table in

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00:14:59,570 --> 00:14:57,540
front of me that our little registration

340
00:15:02,200 --> 00:14:59,580
desk one two three four five six seven

341
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:02,210
eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen up

342
00:15:08,810 --> 00:15:07,170
and more 14 issues of the skeptic

343
00:15:12,290 --> 00:15:08,820
magazine which you've personally been

344
00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:12,300
responsible for but going back now at

345
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,510
five six five years yeah since our 2009

346
00:15:20,450 --> 00:15:17,760
halfway three 2009 the magazine goes

347
00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:20,460
back 34 years it does it's the second

348
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:22,110
longest skeptic magazine in the world it

349
00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:23,730
does and as our listeners know if they

350
00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:27,630
go to ww skeptics Comte you not only can

351
00:15:32,390 --> 00:15:30,390
they download the back issues free and

352
00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:32,400
view them on their I device or on their

353
00:15:36,860 --> 00:15:34,470
screen or print them out but they can

354
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:36,870
subscribe to the current I can't do that

355
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:39,360
handy and we encourage listeners to do

356
00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:40,650
that no matter where they around the

357
00:15:47,420 --> 00:15:42,600
world because if you live in Australia

358
00:15:49,190 --> 00:15:47,430
it's wonderful to get this some physical

359
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:49,200
copy I'm trying to read and thumb

360
00:15:52,650 --> 00:15:50,880
through the pages not trying to do here

361
00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:52,660
we go

362
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:55,160
I'm nothing eating accelerating nothing

363
00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:56,690
like the sound of a real magazine and

364
00:16:00,160 --> 00:15:58,130
I'm have to have a hard copy hey don't

365
00:16:02,170 --> 00:16:00,170
they tell me more I could get a digital

366
00:16:03,460 --> 00:16:02,180
copy digital copies will copy that

367
00:16:05,710 --> 00:16:03,470
downloads under there under there I

368
00:16:07,330 --> 00:16:05,720
preferred format yeah preferred platform

369
00:16:08,980 --> 00:16:07,340
and of course especially for people who

370
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:08,990
are over seeds that's a wonderful

371
00:16:12,370 --> 00:16:11,120
opportunity and it gets them a lot

372
00:16:14,620 --> 00:16:12,380
quicker do it doesn't get any of them a

373
00:16:16,090 --> 00:16:14,630
lot quicker yes all the information for

374
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:16,100
subscription no matter where you are in

375
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:17,120
the world if you want a hard copy

376
00:16:21,790 --> 00:16:19,610
overseas you can do that if you're if

377
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:21,800
you so desire or the digital copy

378
00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:24,290
skeptics Comte you Tim can't wait wins

379
00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:25,790
that out pretty soon I think next month

380
00:16:29,650 --> 00:16:28,190
out early next month early next month

381
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:29,660
which is not far away week's time from

382
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:31,490
now excellent so it really in May a

383
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:33,770
plate Manor we at listeners know that

384
00:16:36,340 --> 00:16:34,970
because that's when most of them are

385
00:16:37,510 --> 00:16:36,350
listening to this all right okay good

386
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:37,520
unless you're listening to us in the

387
00:16:40,870 --> 00:16:39,530
future look we do have some people who

388
00:16:41,950 --> 00:16:40,880
listen to the future and they double

389
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:41,960
back and they've already read the

390
00:16:48,670 --> 00:16:43,250
magazine interesting things the people

391
00:16:50,650 --> 00:16:48,680
listen to us from the past but they can

392
00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:50,660
they can tell us not to do all the bad

393
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:53,240
mistakes have done in our life yeah as

394
00:16:56,350 --> 00:16:54,650
we fail and white won't figure that one

395
00:17:13,870 --> 00:16:56,360
out went to and thanks to him at

396
00:17:21,579 --> 00:17:17,840
hey Kenny oh hi Tom nicely at this part

397
00:17:23,990 --> 00:17:21,589
yeah yes great weather oh look a unicorn

398
00:17:27,170 --> 00:17:24,000
unicorn there are no such things as

399
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:27,180
unicorns silly yes there is no there

400
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:29,370
isn't hey guys what are you arguing

401
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:32,490
about tom thinks unicorns are real hey

402
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:35,250
so are let's look us up in the skeptics

403
00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:38,010
dictionary the what how can we do this

404
00:17:41,780 --> 00:17:40,110
in this park there is the computer here

405
00:17:43,850 --> 00:17:41,790
you guys probably don't know about the

406
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:43,860
skeptics dictionary app available now

407
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:46,770
for iPhone iPad and iPod touch in the

408
00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:50,250
App Store Wow cool the app lets you

409
00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:52,110
access all of the great skeptics

410
00:17:57,140 --> 00:17:53,790
dictionary articles when you're on the

411
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:57,150
go here let me look up unicorns now cool

412
00:18:02,060 --> 00:18:00,000
Kenny prepare to be proven wrong it says

413
00:18:05,810 --> 00:18:02,070
here the Unicorn is a creature from

414
00:18:07,310 --> 00:18:05,820
fables aha actually I see now that

415
00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:07,320
someone just dumped their ice cream cone

416
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:10,110
on that horse's head thanks skeptics

417
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:20,060
what we want is some more evidence

418
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:32,520
hello this is Joe alabaster I am at

419
00:18:36,810 --> 00:18:34,690
Canberra skeptics in the pub this week

420
00:18:39,630 --> 00:18:36,820
and I'm sitting here at the moment with

421
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:39,640
Andrew gold Andrew hello hi Joe how you

422
00:18:45,570 --> 00:18:41,410
doing I'm good thank you and yourself I

423
00:18:47,670 --> 00:18:45,580
am very well that is wonderful um have

424
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:47,680
you got any information as to what's

425
00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:49,210
going on with Canberra skeptics in the

426
00:18:55,950 --> 00:18:52,630
pub camera skeptics in the pub as usual

427
00:18:58,830 --> 00:18:55,960
we have a meet up at the third Sunday of

428
00:19:01,260 --> 00:18:58,840
every month check our facebook group or

429
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:01,270
the Canberra social sphere skeptics

430
00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:04,510
meetup group for more details about that

431
00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:07,960
we've also got the regular monthly

432
00:19:13,710 --> 00:19:10,390
lecture from the Canberra skeptics 12th

433
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:13,720
of June at the Aynsley football club for

434
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:15,760
reasons beyond our control unfortunately

435
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:18,490
we've had to change venues and it's dr.

436
00:19:23,910 --> 00:19:21,760
Danny Kingsley and stop blaming open

437
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:23,920
access what's wrong with scholarly

438
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:26,050
communication so that sounds like it's

439
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:28,650
it's going to be a very interesting

440
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:32,050
interesting thing going on there today

441
00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:35,050
of course we've got Ken MacLeod here at

442
00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:36,910
skeptics in the pub who who gave us a

443
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:39,990
wonderful talk on the Australian

444
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:43,840
anti-vaccination skeptics network and

445
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:46,570
stop the avn that was that was very

446
00:19:51,570 --> 00:19:48,970
interesting there was one other thing I

447
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:51,580
also wanted to upload and that is my

448
00:19:55,470 --> 00:19:53,170
friend Jeff wagon the college of

449
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:55,480
curiosity has announced a South Pacific

450
00:20:03,180 --> 00:19:58,240
cruise it will be leaving from Sydney on

451
00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:03,190
March the 14 2015 and going to New

452
00:20:09,630 --> 00:20:06,220
Caledonia and Noumea coming back on the

453
00:20:12,110 --> 00:20:09,640
27th so if you go to college of

454
00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:12,120
curiosity com there's there's

455
00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:16,000
preliminary details on there Jeff tells

456
00:20:21,630 --> 00:20:19,150
me that he'll be taking bookings and

457
00:20:23,850 --> 00:20:21,640
doing more details around about June

458
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:23,860
this year so we've got plenty of time to

459
00:20:29,970 --> 00:20:27,370
plan Jeff does fantastic tours as I've

460
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:29,980
as a long-term listeners to the skeptic

461
00:20:34,110 --> 00:20:31,840
zone will know because I've gone on one

462
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:34,120
of his tours before and many of my

463
00:20:39,450 --> 00:20:36,610
friends have gone on others they're

464
00:20:42,169 --> 00:20:39,460
great tours he he gets very very into

465
00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:42,179
the details of the places he goes to

466
00:20:47,899 --> 00:20:44,700
and finds all of these curious facts and

467
00:20:51,980 --> 00:20:47,909
things that you might not know so look

468
00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:51,990
at college of curiosity calm the getting

469
00:20:56,989 --> 00:20:53,700
curious in the South Pacific cruise

470
00:20:58,759 --> 00:20:56,999
because I'm planning on being there a

471
00:21:00,499 --> 00:20:58,769
lot of people i know are planning on

472
00:21:02,899 --> 00:21:00,509
being there including some people from

473
00:21:04,909 --> 00:21:02,909
the US who are getting their first

474
00:21:06,769 --> 00:21:04,919
chance to come out to Australia that

475
00:21:10,159 --> 00:21:06,779
sounds fantastic what else have the

476
00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:10,169
College of curiosity done well there was

477
00:21:17,259 --> 00:21:14,100
a tour I went on last year which covered

478
00:21:19,850 --> 00:21:17,269
the Kennedy Space Center in Florida

479
00:21:22,009 --> 00:21:19,860
which was fantastic we got to see the

480
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:22,019
the Space Shuttle in the in the Vehicle

481
00:21:26,210 --> 00:21:23,730
Assembly Building and it was right there

482
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:26,220
and it was just an amazing thing to say

483
00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:27,600
I could have gone home after that but

484
00:21:33,739 --> 00:21:30,840
then we we got on board this cruise ship

485
00:21:39,799 --> 00:21:33,749
and went for for several days around the

486
00:21:42,830 --> 00:21:39,809
Bahamas taking in coke okay and port

487
00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:42,840
Providence and a couple of those nice

488
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:45,929
pirate locations and things and then

489
00:21:51,049 --> 00:21:48,809
came back to Epcot and jeff's knowledge

490
00:21:53,810 --> 00:21:51,059
of epcot was voluminous or was it was

491
00:21:58,629 --> 00:21:53,820
quite amazing but yeah go on to college

492
00:22:00,799 --> 00:21:58,639
of curiosity calm I think that okay now

493
00:22:03,109 --> 00:22:00,809
i'm pretty sure we'll be able to put the

494
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:03,119
link up a skeptic same page as well the

495
00:22:09,619 --> 00:22:05,490
this other this website Jeff does an

496
00:22:12,109 --> 00:22:09,629
unknown object and he finds an object

497
00:22:16,009 --> 00:22:12,119
and puts it up and says what is this

498
00:22:19,009 --> 00:22:16,019
thing some of them some of them are

499
00:22:21,049 --> 00:22:19,019
identified yeah a few even after many

500
00:22:24,649 --> 00:22:21,059
weeks are still not not actually fully

501
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:24,659
identified so we there's one up at the

502
00:22:31,519 --> 00:22:27,600
moment an interesting device I have not

503
00:22:33,049 --> 00:22:31,529
no idea what it is but if you go on to

504
00:22:34,759 --> 00:22:33,059
this website maybe you can have a look

505
00:22:36,379 --> 00:22:34,769
at it and find out that's interesting

506
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:36,389
they used to have on the TV show

507
00:22:40,759 --> 00:22:38,129
collectors they used to bring out a

508
00:22:42,889 --> 00:22:40,769
strange device or an take every week or

509
00:22:44,299 --> 00:22:42,899
so and you'll be able to have a go at

510
00:22:47,269 --> 00:22:44,309
guessing what on earth it was is it a

511
00:22:50,450 --> 00:22:47,279
similar sort of format to that it's sort

512
00:22:52,730 --> 00:22:50,460
of i think yes a lot of them Jeff knows

513
00:22:54,379 --> 00:22:52,740
what it is before he posts wondering

514
00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:54,389
yeah who posts up he posted up hints

515
00:22:57,860 --> 00:22:55,280
yeah

516
00:22:59,390 --> 00:22:57,870
and it's like a little info I mean

517
00:23:02,020 --> 00:22:59,400
there's no there's no prizes for

518
00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:02,030
guessing or anything but it's like a

519
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:04,740
curiosity and ya know that actually

520
00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:06,690
sounds like a lot of fun it is a lot of

521
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:09,840
fun excellent wonderful thank you very

522
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:12,690
much for that that's okay fantastic i'm

523
00:23:16,610 --> 00:23:13,890
here at canberra skeptics in the pub

524
00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:16,620
store and i'm speaking with Ken MacLeod

525
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:18,750
and John bundle ken MacLeod has just

526
00:23:25,970 --> 00:23:22,410
done a talk on stop the APNs campaign to

527
00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:25,980
stop the avian hello ken hello Joe and

528
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:28,710
hello John hello Joe it's wonderful to

529
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:30,690
see you both here again what can you

530
00:23:36,020 --> 00:23:33,330
tell us about stop the AVM well stop the

531
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:36,030
avian was formed in 2009 after the death

532
00:23:42,110 --> 00:23:39,570
of a baby from a preventable disease we

533
00:23:45,230 --> 00:23:42,120
found and were horrified as a group of

534
00:23:48,770 --> 00:23:45,240
just ordinary citizens that there is an

535
00:23:51,110 --> 00:23:48,780
active anti-vaccine community in our

536
00:23:53,180 --> 00:23:51,120
society and we decided something had to

537
00:23:55,670 --> 00:23:53,190
be done about the callous behavior and

538
00:23:59,030 --> 00:23:55,680
so stop the avian was formed by Daniel

539
00:24:02,150 --> 00:23:59,040
rafail and I joined as I think member

540
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:02,160
number 348 after a lot of other very

541
00:24:09,110 --> 00:24:04,050
eminent people we've been working since

542
00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:09,120
July 2009 to affect change within

543
00:24:13,970 --> 00:24:11,340
government in the media and society

544
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:13,980
generally in the behavior and attitude

545
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:17,970
towards vaccines and how many people are

546
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:21,600
involved now do you think it's purely a

547
00:24:25,860 --> 00:24:23,820
Facebook group there's no official

548
00:24:29,370 --> 00:24:25,870
membership

549
00:24:31,530 --> 00:24:29,380
well it's a bit loose to cause an

550
00:24:33,180 --> 00:24:31,540
organization we're a Facebook group of

551
00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:33,190
about twelve thousand one hundred people

552
00:24:36,990 --> 00:24:34,990
we are not incorporated as an

553
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:37,000
association we are not a registered

554
00:24:44,490 --> 00:24:41,050
charity but within that 12,100 there's

555
00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:44,500
about thirty members in an inner circle

556
00:24:49,530 --> 00:24:47,110
that determined policy and more concrete

557
00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:49,540
action and we think we've been

558
00:24:54,990 --> 00:24:52,360
incredibly effective and what's been

559
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:55,000
going on recently well in the last year

560
00:24:59,130 --> 00:24:57,010
or so we've had a remarkable change in

561
00:25:02,370 --> 00:24:59,140
the media who now regard merrill dory

562
00:25:04,770 --> 00:25:02,380
under ilk as complete ratbags we have

563
00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:04,780
had changes to legislation in New South

564
00:25:08,669 --> 00:25:06,340
Wales and that's the healthcare

565
00:25:13,220 --> 00:25:08,679
complaints act and the association's

566
00:25:16,169 --> 00:25:13,230
incorporation regulation with the new

567
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:16,179
legislation has empowered the new south

568
00:25:21,930 --> 00:25:17,770
wales government to take much firmer

569
00:25:23,310 --> 00:25:21,940
action the media have come around to our

570
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:23,320
point of view but we still have the

571
00:25:33,419 --> 00:25:27,690
occasional lapse that we must counteract

572
00:25:34,770 --> 00:25:33,429
the avn as our main target recently we

573
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:34,780
were forced by the New South Wales

574
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:36,250
Government to change their name to

575
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:38,170
reflect more accurately what they do

576
00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:42,130
they have lost their charity license the

577
00:25:46,830 --> 00:25:43,990
health care Complaints Commission have

578
00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:46,840
issued a public warning which will not

579
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:49,510
be overturned in any court and we can

580
00:25:55,380 --> 00:25:51,610
now use that public warning as very

581
00:26:00,600 --> 00:25:55,390
powerful evidence in our campaign to

582
00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:00,610
have the avn put out of business so the

583
00:26:05,490 --> 00:26:03,190
goal of stop the avn is it entirely

584
00:26:07,230 --> 00:26:05,500
based around the avian or are they

585
00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:07,240
looking at further anti-vaccination

586
00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:11,470
groups as well ok well f proper name is

587
00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:13,990
stop the Australian bracket anti close

588
00:26:20,130 --> 00:26:17,100
bracket vaccination network now the

589
00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:20,140
Australian vaccination skeptics network

590
00:26:26,220 --> 00:26:23,550
as they are now called is the largest

591
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:26,230
anti-vaccine lobby group in Australia

592
00:26:32,190 --> 00:26:29,530
and so they became our main target but

593
00:26:36,750 --> 00:26:32,200
there are many others and they firmly

594
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:36,760
within our sights to have them put out

595
00:26:41,420 --> 00:26:38,250
of business

596
00:26:43,340 --> 00:26:41,430
so if the ABN do end up closing our

597
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:43,350
business there's still work for stop the

598
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:45,930
ABN we've got a lifetime career ahead of

599
00:26:51,230 --> 00:26:48,690
all of us here in putting such people as

600
00:26:53,270 --> 00:26:51,240
stephanie messenger and so on firmly out

601
00:26:55,550 --> 00:26:53,280
of business and can what would you say

602
00:26:57,500 --> 00:26:55,560
you take home messages well as i was

603
00:27:01,280 --> 00:26:57,510
speaking to the canberra skeptics today

604
00:27:03,770 --> 00:27:01,290
i came to realize that even though i'm

605
00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:03,780
preaching to a converted audience in

606
00:27:10,190 --> 00:27:07,740
that the canberra skeptic suit a very

607
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:10,200
firmly aware of the benefit of vaccines

608
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:13,200
but what the main message I wanted them

609
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:15,690
to go home with was it's all very well

610
00:27:19,970 --> 00:27:17,250
for everyone to sit around and complain

611
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:19,980
but nothing will happen unless people

612
00:27:24,770 --> 00:27:21,930
make it happen so it's up to every

613
00:27:27,470 --> 00:27:24,780
skeptic every scientist everywhere to

614
00:27:30,020 --> 00:27:27,480
take action checking their local

615
00:27:31,940 --> 00:27:30,030
libraries for avn propaganda having it

616
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:31,950
reported and thrown out check their

617
00:27:41,650 --> 00:27:33,810
coffee shops for brochures have them

618
00:27:46,010 --> 00:27:41,660
bent report anti-vaccine messages to TV

619
00:27:48,380 --> 00:27:46,020
editors broadcasters report to era

620
00:27:50,210 --> 00:27:48,390
newspapers to the press council take

621
00:27:52,250 --> 00:27:50,220
action nothing will happen unless you

622
00:27:54,380 --> 00:27:52,260
make it happen and that was my take home

623
00:27:59,390 --> 00:27:54,390
message that sounds absolutely wonderful

624
00:28:01,130 --> 00:27:59,400
thank you so much Ken well I had a

625
00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:01,140
wonderful time at Canberra skeptics in

626
00:28:04,850 --> 00:28:02,910
the pub they're a lovely group of people

627
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:04,860
and most welcoming so if you're a

628
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:06,690
Canberra local or just passing through

629
00:28:11,180 --> 00:28:08,730
do check out their meetup group facebook

630
00:28:13,220 --> 00:28:11,190
page and twitter account that's at CB

631
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:13,230
are skeptics as they've got regular

632
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:14,610
skeptics in the pub meetings and

633
00:28:18,260 --> 00:28:15,810
lectures with a wide array of

634
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:18,270
interesting speakers on topics if you're

635
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:19,890
not in Canberra you can still sit in on

636
00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:22,710
the lectures online via livestream links

637
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:24,420
to which are announced via facebook and

638
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:27,120
on twitter also if you're curious to

639
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:28,890
find out what stopped the avn are up to

640
00:28:32,570 --> 00:28:30,960
and get the opportunity ken MacLeod is a

641
00:28:35,060 --> 00:28:32,580
great speaker very engaging and

642
00:28:36,980 --> 00:28:35,070
interesting for more information on stop

643
00:28:39,710 --> 00:28:36,990
the avn you can like their facebook page

644
00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:39,720
stop the australian racket aunty bracket

645
00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:41,910
vac station network or follow their

646
00:28:46,220 --> 00:28:44,460
twitter account at stop avn it's

647
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:46,230
fantastic community-based grassroots

648
00:28:55,050 --> 00:28:48,240
activism involving skeptics and non

649
00:29:09,550 --> 00:29:07,480
on Manor com don't you hey you coming to

650
00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:09,560
you live from the exciting bleep Point

651
00:29:13,810 --> 00:29:11,360
Road frou-frou cafe it's mr. Tim

652
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:13,820
Ferguson good morning good evening good

653
00:29:17,740 --> 00:29:15,650
afternoon and all the times in between

654
00:29:19,090 --> 00:29:17,750
and my name's may know we've got it all

655
00:29:21,010 --> 00:29:19,100
here we've got dogs that we've got

656
00:29:23,530 --> 00:29:21,020
screaming babies with God pouting

657
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:23,540
waiters I've heard that ghosts can only

658
00:29:28,780 --> 00:29:25,850
travel in straight lines and they can't

659
00:29:30,460 --> 00:29:28,790
jump I know it feng shui you did usually

660
00:29:32,860 --> 00:29:30,470
a mirror or something and so the evil

661
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:32,870
can't turn and get into your house he

662
00:29:36,820 --> 00:29:34,490
put something there will you heard about

663
00:29:39,070 --> 00:29:36,830
ghosts and their physical ability I do

664
00:29:42,820 --> 00:29:39,080
know that they cannot jump they won't

665
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:42,830
shall they refuse to jump recalcitrant

666
00:29:47,110 --> 00:29:44,810
that's their problem after a lifetime of

667
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:47,120
jumping you don't want to spend the

668
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:50,240
afterworld being us repeatedly come on I

669
00:29:54,820 --> 00:29:52,010
would jump over that if you can walk

670
00:29:56,890 --> 00:29:54,830
through walls why would you want to jump

671
00:30:01,060 --> 00:29:56,900
there seemed to be a set of rules that a

672
00:30:04,210 --> 00:30:01,070
bit grey grey there one is ghost gazans

673
00:30:06,430 --> 00:30:04,220
do they happen I mean I don't want to be

674
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:06,440
fighting myself in the afterworld where

675
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:08,810
there is no orgasm there is no point in

676
00:30:13,660 --> 00:30:11,810
being alive without orgasms and daytime

677
00:30:21,910 --> 00:30:13,670
TV I want both of those in the

678
00:30:27,610 --> 00:30:21,920
afterworld on main art com do you hey

679
00:30:32,570 --> 00:30:30,230
welcome to a week in science from our

680
00:30:35,030 --> 00:30:32,580
ions bringing you the sides you need to

681
00:30:37,850 --> 00:30:35,040
know the old saying no pain no gain

682
00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:37,860
seems to be spot on Australian spend

683
00:30:41,660 --> 00:30:39,750
about two billion dollars a year on

684
00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:41,670
sports injuries and there are some

685
00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:47,640
simple ways to prevent many of them one

686
00:30:52,460 --> 00:30:49,860
way to reduce your injury risk is to do

687
00:30:55,340 --> 00:30:52,470
some pre-season training studies of

688
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:55,350
football codes show 50 to 75 percent

689
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:57,330
reduction in injury risk when a

690
00:31:02,090 --> 00:30:59,600
preseason regime includes strength

691
00:31:05,090 --> 00:31:02,100
flexibility and balance exercises

692
00:31:06,980 --> 00:31:05,100
without preseason conditioning athletes

693
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:06,990
put a lot more strain on their bodies

694
00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:09,360
when the season starts leading to

695
00:31:14,930 --> 00:31:12,510
injuries but a word of warning a recent

696
00:31:17,420 --> 00:31:14,940
rugby analysis showed that really heavy

697
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:17,430
preseason loads can increase your risk

698
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:20,370
of injury so while some preseason is

699
00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:22,170
good you probably shouldn't go crazy

700
00:31:27,110 --> 00:31:24,630
with it during the rest of the season an

701
00:31:29,510 --> 00:31:27,120
hour of weight training each week helps

702
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:29,520
prevent lower body injuries including

703
00:31:36,770 --> 00:31:34,290
your groin knees and hamstring now into

704
00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:36,780
warm ups while some studies disagree the

705
00:31:41,690 --> 00:31:38,910
overall weight of evidence suggests that

706
00:31:43,970 --> 00:31:41,700
warm-ups are important warming up opens

707
00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:43,980
up your capillaries and increases blood

708
00:31:48,110 --> 00:31:46,110
flow to your muscles increasing their

709
00:31:51,020 --> 00:31:48,120
temperature and causing more efficient

710
00:31:53,090 --> 00:31:51,030
oxygen transfer studies using animals

711
00:31:55,130 --> 00:31:53,100
have also shown that more force and more

712
00:31:57,590 --> 00:31:55,140
lengthening is needed to injure a warm

713
00:32:00,230 --> 00:31:57,600
muscle unfortunately the evidence for

714
00:32:02,450 --> 00:32:00,240
cooldowns isn't as clear general muscle

715
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:02,460
soreness after exercising is caused by

716
00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:04,530
tiny tears in your muscle fibers and

717
00:32:08,420 --> 00:32:06,390
cooling down doesn't help with that

718
00:32:11,030 --> 00:32:08,430
there's also little evidence that it

719
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:11,040
prevents long-term injuries what it does

720
00:32:15,230 --> 00:32:13,410
do is allow your circulatory system to

721
00:32:17,510 --> 00:32:15,240
slowly return to normal while

722
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:17,520
maintaining proper blood pressure this

723
00:32:21,380 --> 00:32:19,290
prevents dizziness and fainting which

724
00:32:24,290 --> 00:32:21,390
can often occur after a hard session and

725
00:32:26,269 --> 00:32:24,300
now for fast facts about sport injury

726
00:32:28,830 --> 00:32:26,279
prevention

727
00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:28,840
over half a million Australians have a

728
00:32:33,930 --> 00:32:30,700
long-term condition that can be blamed

729
00:32:36,419 --> 00:32:33,940
on a sporting or exercise injury static

730
00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:36,429
stretching before exercise doesn't seem

731
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:38,230
to prevent injury and can actually

732
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:40,330
decrease your sprinting and jumping

733
00:32:44,430 --> 00:32:42,399
performance you can reduce your injury

734
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:44,440
risk by having a day's rest between

735
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:46,450
training sessions allowing your muscles

736
00:32:50,729 --> 00:32:48,399
to repair before punishing them again

737
00:32:53,460 --> 00:32:50,739
and static and dynamic stretching after

738
00:32:56,249 --> 00:32:53,470
you workout and on non exercising days

739
00:32:57,930 --> 00:32:56,259
can lower your injury risk that's it for

740
00:32:59,519 --> 00:32:57,940
this week in science for more

741
00:33:03,090 --> 00:32:59,529
information on the science of sports

742
00:33:05,789 --> 00:33:03,100
injuries go to the area's website RI aus

743
00:33:08,909 --> 00:33:05,799
org dot a you follow us on twitter at

744
00:33:22,340 --> 00:33:08,919
areas and like us on facebook i'm karen

745
00:33:26,940 --> 00:33:25,139
virtual skeptics is a weekly web show in

746
00:33:29,249 --> 00:33:26,950
which we discuss the latest news in

747
00:33:30,749 --> 00:33:29,259
skepticism whether it's a new case of

748
00:33:32,940 --> 00:33:30,759
spontaneous human combustion a

749
00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:32,950
conspiracy theory the latest update on

750
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:35,200
the upcoming robot apocalypse tech news

751
00:33:39,330 --> 00:33:36,850
for skeptics are the latest wacky

752
00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:39,340
religious claim we cover it all we

753
00:33:44,369 --> 00:33:41,710
record the show live as a Google+ on-air

754
00:33:46,169 --> 00:33:44,379
hang out so join us and our host Brian

755
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:46,179
Gregory for an hour of mostly

756
00:33:51,749 --> 00:33:48,850
intelligent talk every Wednesday at a PM

757
00:33:54,330 --> 00:33:51,759
eastern US time watch us at virtual

758
00:33:57,659 --> 00:33:54,340
skeptics calm and participate in the

759
00:33:59,700 --> 00:33:57,669
show on our hashtag virtual skeptics the

760
00:34:09,270 --> 00:33:59,710
virtual skeptics it's like meet the

761
00:34:11,849 --> 00:34:09,280
press but with chupacabras let's all

762
00:34:17,419 --> 00:34:11,859
take this with a grain of salt he's

763
00:34:22,770 --> 00:34:20,970
I'm here with dr. Chris French hello

764
00:34:24,630 --> 00:34:22,780
Chris how are you doing hello you've

765
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:24,640
only arrived today at QED so you only

766
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:26,650
you missed the first day i miss the

767
00:34:32,430 --> 00:34:28,570
first day i've actually fact get here

768
00:34:35,700 --> 00:34:32,440
late last night so i hear about 9pm just

769
00:34:37,470 --> 00:34:35,710
in time to see richard wiseman giving

770
00:34:42,330 --> 00:34:37,480
the Occam awards so they're great fun

771
00:34:43,980 --> 00:34:42,340
that was great so we we also met in

772
00:34:47,310 --> 00:34:43,990
november in canberra where you

773
00:34:48,750 --> 00:34:47,320
participated in national skip lead to a

774
00:34:51,149 --> 00:34:48,760
very successfully organized by the

775
00:34:54,090 --> 00:34:51,159
canberra skeptics what was your

776
00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:54,100
experience in in canberra in australia

777
00:34:58,590 --> 00:34:55,720
in general oh I Robin I thoroughly

778
00:35:01,740 --> 00:34:58,600
enjoyed my visit I was I was so well

779
00:35:03,150 --> 00:35:01,750
looked after by Canberra skeptics and

780
00:35:05,790 --> 00:35:03,160
various other skeptics groups that I

781
00:35:07,230 --> 00:35:05,800
went and did talks for and yeah the

782
00:35:10,500 --> 00:35:07,240
whole experience which is entirely

783
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:10,510
positive the only complaint that I would

784
00:35:17,370 --> 00:35:15,130
have is the very inconsiderately my

785
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:17,380
people go to its College where I work

786
00:35:21,330 --> 00:35:19,690
University of London they didn't seem to

787
00:35:23,850 --> 00:35:21,340
take a fortnight off so I'd wake up

788
00:35:25,590 --> 00:35:23,860
every morning in my inbox would email

789
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:25,600
INBOX would be full of emails from

790
00:35:28,980 --> 00:35:27,370
people I didn't have the time to deal

791
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:28,990
with but apart from that i'm going to do

792
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:31,210
so that they're so it's actually a shame

793
00:35:33,930 --> 00:35:32,770
that camera skeptics didn't do something

794
00:35:36,030 --> 00:35:33,940
about that think they should have

795
00:35:37,260 --> 00:35:36,040
actually sorted that out really yeah i'm

796
00:35:39,150 --> 00:35:37,270
not even disagree with Claire's the

797
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:39,160
national holiday back in the UK for a

798
00:35:42,540 --> 00:35:41,440
fortnight you know and then I would not

799
00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:42,550
have had so many emails to deal with

800
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:44,350
yeah I completely understand because I'm

801
00:35:48,510 --> 00:35:47,110
on to two weeks holiday right now right

802
00:35:51,450 --> 00:35:48,520
in the middle of a two weeks holiday and

803
00:35:53,730 --> 00:35:51,460
I i dread what will help my email box

804
00:35:55,230 --> 00:35:53,740
will look like when I come back um so

805
00:35:57,540 --> 00:35:55,240
how long were you in australia though it

806
00:35:59,700 --> 00:35:57,550
was just for two weeks it was ok so i'm

807
00:36:02,400 --> 00:35:59,710
sure to visit so about to a conference

808
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:02,410
in Canberra what else did you know I did

809
00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:06,130
I did talks with various local skeptics

810
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:10,750
groups I think we the final event was a

811
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:13,570
British anomalistic psychologist in the

812
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:15,970
pub evening which was me and Chrissy

813
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:18,400
we'll see who Chrissy I supervise her

814
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:21,490
PhD and then I wish she moved to

815
00:36:26,810 --> 00:36:24,370
Australia so that was great fun and it

816
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:26,820
was just great to meet so many

817
00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:29,010
interesting and friendly people so did

818
00:36:35,870 --> 00:36:32,250
you get to do any any tourism activity I

819
00:36:39,830 --> 00:36:35,880
did a little bit of sightseeing I was

820
00:36:42,650 --> 00:36:39,840
kind of taken around ferried round to

821
00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:42,660
various places and yeah I did get to see

822
00:36:45,470 --> 00:36:44,070
a little bit of the country but I've and

823
00:36:47,210 --> 00:36:45,480
I've loved to go and get a chance to go

824
00:36:51,230 --> 00:36:47,220
back and do it properly well you do have

825
00:36:54,490 --> 00:36:51,240
a Chrissy's now in Alice Springs which

826
00:36:57,290 --> 00:36:54,500
is a short six hour drive from olaru

827
00:37:00,020 --> 00:36:57,300
driver you guys call very sure that it

828
00:37:02,780 --> 00:37:00,030
looks like ours which is about the

829
00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:02,790
length of Britain I mean I mean I mean

830
00:37:07,250 --> 00:37:05,400
I'm so kind of lazy that you know we've

831
00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:07,260
got at least half a dozen branches of

832
00:37:12,110 --> 00:37:10,710
skeptics in the pub in London yes well I

833
00:37:13,730 --> 00:37:12,120
wasn't good enough for me now that I'm

834
00:37:15,530 --> 00:37:13,740
gonna set up my own branch just around

835
00:37:19,130 --> 00:37:15,540
the corner from where I live you know

836
00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:19,140
they're so the talk about you gave today

837
00:37:25,150 --> 00:37:22,110
can you can you talk about today I was

838
00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:25,160
on a panel with Richard Wiseman and

839
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:28,020
chris roe and what we were discussing

840
00:37:34,610 --> 00:37:31,730
today were various issues relating to

841
00:37:37,010 --> 00:37:34,620
replication problems in science

842
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:37,020
generally but particularly in psychology

843
00:37:41,390 --> 00:37:39,690
and in parapsychology now maybe that

844
00:37:43,330 --> 00:37:41,400
would be good time I think people would

845
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:43,340
know who Richard Wiseman is but but who

846
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:47,690
was Miss Rose row Chris row is a

847
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:50,000
psychologist but also a parapsychologist

848
00:37:56,450 --> 00:37:52,410
he's at the University of Northampton

849
00:37:59,570 --> 00:37:56,460
and what are the interesting things is

850
00:38:02,990 --> 00:37:59,580
that I've known Chris for a very long

851
00:38:08,330 --> 00:38:03,000
time and really we would probably agree

852
00:38:10,820 --> 00:38:08,340
on 95% plus of issues it's just really

853
00:38:14,750 --> 00:38:10,830
that kind of rock bottom level basic

854
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:14,760
assumptions whether or not he we believe

855
00:38:19,850 --> 00:38:17,210
that the evidence for the paranormal is

856
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:19,860
generally in favor or actually not very

857
00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:21,810
strong i don't think it's awfully strong

858
00:38:25,730 --> 00:38:23,790
Chris at least I think would say that

859
00:38:27,620 --> 00:38:25,740
it's it's strongly enough to merit

860
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:27,630
further research and I think if he had

861
00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:29,010
to bet his house on it you would

862
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:30,510
probably bet that some of these

863
00:38:35,090 --> 00:38:32,310
paranormal phenomena at least were

864
00:38:35,359 --> 00:38:35,100
genuinely so he does paranormal so you

865
00:38:38,809 --> 00:38:35,369
think

866
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:38,819
would if he was forced he would come

867
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:40,079
down on the side of a believer but like

868
00:38:46,549 --> 00:38:44,130
lots of parapsychologists it's not that

869
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:46,559
he's a kind of wide-eyed uncritically

870
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:48,480
but I think there is quite often a

871
00:38:53,359 --> 00:38:51,690
tendency for skeptics to believe that I

872
00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:53,369
know and I kind of fell into this trap

873
00:38:57,589 --> 00:38:55,200
myself when I first discovered the joys

874
00:39:00,410 --> 00:38:57,599
of skepticism I used to be a believer in

875
00:39:03,890 --> 00:39:00,420
our east of Leslie believer to quite

876
00:39:06,950 --> 00:39:03,900
well into my adulthood and it was

877
00:39:09,410 --> 00:39:06,960
reading one particular book by james ol

878
00:39:12,259 --> 00:39:09,420
called parapsychology science or

879
00:39:13,999 --> 00:39:12,269
magic that made me realize there was

880
00:39:15,739 --> 00:39:14,009
another way of explaining all these

881
00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:15,749
unusual experiences and one that

882
00:39:21,739 --> 00:39:18,990
actually made a lot of sense to me I ran

883
00:39:24,589 --> 00:39:21,749
and I kind of now no James okok or Jim

884
00:39:26,450 --> 00:39:24,599
my mate Jim and it's got a its quite now

885
00:39:27,890 --> 00:39:26,460
to consider him a personal friend and I

886
00:39:30,739 --> 00:39:27,900
can kind of turn around him and say you

887
00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:30,749
are the bastard that got me to arriving

888
00:39:36,799 --> 00:39:32,880
today you've got a lot to answer for but

889
00:39:37,849 --> 00:39:36,809
when I first got into skepticism I did

890
00:39:39,559 --> 00:39:37,859
very much take a kind a very

891
00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:39,569
black-and-white simplistic view I think

892
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:42,390
of parapsychology I kind of thought that

893
00:39:46,099 --> 00:39:44,400
all parapsychologists were incompetent

894
00:39:50,029 --> 00:39:46,109
couldn't design the experiment to save

895
00:39:52,249 --> 00:39:50,039
their lives that all psychics were

896
00:39:56,029 --> 00:39:52,259
deliberate con artists that all

897
00:39:57,890 --> 00:39:56,039
paranormal and related beliefs were were

898
00:39:59,569 --> 00:39:57,900
no damaging in some way now don't bleed

899
00:40:01,549 --> 00:39:59,579
any of those things now I still don't

900
00:40:03,259 --> 00:40:01,559
believe in the paranormal I'm still you

901
00:40:07,279 --> 00:40:03,269
know this size it so this is something I

902
00:40:10,099 --> 00:40:07,289
do want to ask you so um Chris in his

903
00:40:14,059 --> 00:40:10,109
orchestra in his opening statement made

904
00:40:16,249 --> 00:40:14,069
the point that a lot of the basic

905
00:40:18,739 --> 00:40:16,259
parameters of what would be considered

906
00:40:21,259 --> 00:40:18,749
good research or positive research in

907
00:40:23,089 --> 00:40:21,269
terms of the outcomes would be similar

908
00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:23,099
between such general psychological

909
00:40:26,690 --> 00:40:24,960
research and parapsychology code I think

910
00:40:29,839 --> 00:40:26,700
that's absolutely the case I mean ever

911
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:29,849
since the 1930s when Rhine JB Rhine

912
00:40:35,870 --> 00:40:33,450
first set up his laboratory the kind of

913
00:40:37,819 --> 00:40:35,880
experiments they were doing were very

914
00:40:39,620 --> 00:40:37,829
similar to the kind of experiments that

915
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:39,630
psychologists were doing it's just that

916
00:40:43,339 --> 00:40:41,249
instead of looking at say how the normal

917
00:40:45,180 --> 00:40:43,349
senses work they were trying to see

918
00:40:47,130 --> 00:40:45,190
whether there's anything this case

919
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:47,140
so so there's a couple of things there's

920
00:40:50,010 --> 00:40:48,250
one thing that wasn't mentioned today

921
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:50,020
and that is things that contradict

922
00:40:55,290 --> 00:40:53,440
physics mm-hmm a future awesome so there

923
00:40:57,630 --> 00:40:55,300
are things that you where you say okay

924
00:40:59,569 --> 00:40:57,640
physics or science doesn't explain for

925
00:41:02,520 --> 00:40:59,579
example how maybe people communicate

926
00:41:05,250 --> 00:41:02,530
across distances or stuff like that but

927
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:05,260
things that have to do with breaking the

928
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:08,170
laws of science like looking into the

929
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:10,720
future those are I would be very

930
00:41:17,099 --> 00:41:12,970
interested to know what Chris row things

931
00:41:19,079 --> 00:41:17,109
about that but but but more importantly

932
00:41:22,710 --> 00:41:19,089
for the from the perspective of what

933
00:41:24,270 --> 00:41:22,720
we're discussing right now how if all

934
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:24,280
the basic parameters are the same and

935
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:26,290
the replication rate is about the same

936
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:28,720
in all that how come how can we justify

937
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:33,280
not accepting the evidence for whatever

938
00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:36,970
paranormal research Chris engages in but

939
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:39,760
accepting the research for just

940
00:41:43,950 --> 00:41:42,250
mainstream psychological research well

941
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:43,960
they again with mainstream psychological

942
00:41:49,829 --> 00:41:46,770
research there are literally dozens

943
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:49,839
hundreds of effects that are very very

944
00:41:54,150 --> 00:41:52,210
robust totally replicable much bigger

945
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:54,160
effect sizes and the kind of thing we

946
00:41:59,970 --> 00:41:56,560
were talking about today and the kind of

947
00:42:03,359 --> 00:41:59,980
thing that you typically find in

948
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:03,369
parapsychology now I mean at the end of

949
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:06,730
the day in terms of whether or not any

950
00:42:11,069 --> 00:42:09,310
of these effects are real I think there

951
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:11,079
was happened recently with this kind of

952
00:42:16,740 --> 00:42:12,910
it's been referred to as a crisis of

953
00:42:18,510 --> 00:42:16,750
confidence in psychology I would agree

954
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:18,520
with Chris row that actually it's just a

955
00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:20,560
bit of healthy self criticism you know

956
00:42:26,250 --> 00:42:24,250
that we have acknowledged that there are

957
00:42:28,710 --> 00:42:26,260
these issues that arise that some of the

958
00:42:30,990 --> 00:42:28,720
effects some of the effects that are

959
00:42:33,359 --> 00:42:31,000
reported in mainstream psychology

960
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:33,369
journals are probably not really facts

961
00:42:38,010 --> 00:42:36,670
and we are trying to address that and I

962
00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:38,020
think that's a really really good thing

963
00:42:42,059 --> 00:42:39,730
to be doing and I hope it actually sets

964
00:42:43,740 --> 00:42:42,069
a standard for other sciences to try and

965
00:42:45,809 --> 00:42:43,750
follow because it's these are not issues

966
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:45,819
that only effect psychology and

967
00:42:49,770 --> 00:42:48,160
parapsychology there is a much bigger

968
00:42:55,230 --> 00:42:49,780
problem of replication with in

969
00:42:57,150 --> 00:42:55,240
parapsychology the there is sort of in a

970
00:42:58,180 --> 00:42:57,160
very simplistically there isn't a single

971
00:43:00,910 --> 00:42:58,190
power

972
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:00,920
normal effect that you could use as the

973
00:43:04,930 --> 00:43:02,690
basis for a first-year lab class and

974
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:04,940
hope to stand any chance at all of

975
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:06,530
actually getting a significant results

976
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:08,330
now there are dozens and dozens and

977
00:43:11,590 --> 00:43:10,010
dozens of psychological effects so what

978
00:43:13,150 --> 00:43:11,600
does so what does Chris say about that

979
00:43:17,110 --> 00:43:13,160
work I think I mean I think Chris would

980
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:17,120
say I mean inevitably what all the

981
00:43:22,690 --> 00:43:20,210
sciences are about is trying to separate

982
00:43:23,980 --> 00:43:22,700
the signal from the noise okay they're

983
00:43:27,180 --> 00:43:23,990
gonna be sources of error there's going

984
00:43:29,860 --> 00:43:27,190
to be all this kind of stuff and

985
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:29,870
basically it can be sometimes very very

986
00:43:38,590 --> 00:43:34,370
difficult to do that now my view is that

987
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:38,600
what this recent controversy kind of

988
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:41,510
highlights is that a lot of the effects

989
00:43:47,380 --> 00:43:43,010
that actually get published in very good

990
00:43:49,980 --> 00:43:47,390
journals in in experimental written

991
00:43:53,530 --> 00:43:49,990
reports that look as if the studies were

992
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:53,540
properly controlled etc etc etc there'll

993
00:43:57,310 --> 00:43:55,610
be a percentage of those effects that

994
00:43:59,440 --> 00:43:57,320
aren't actually really affects their

995
00:44:01,710 --> 00:43:59,450
spurious for various reasons but

996
00:44:03,940 --> 00:44:01,720
questionable research practices

997
00:44:06,750 --> 00:44:03,950
occasional deliberate fraud although

998
00:44:09,850 --> 00:44:06,760
it's probably quite rare but it happens

999
00:44:12,430 --> 00:44:09,860
statistical blips etc etc all of those

1000
00:44:15,490 --> 00:44:12,440
kinds of things now the question then

1001
00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:15,500
becomes well what would it be like if

1002
00:44:20,620 --> 00:44:18,710
you had a science that was actually just

1003
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:20,630
based on noise there were no real

1004
00:44:25,090 --> 00:44:23,110
signals there I think it would look like

1005
00:44:27,850 --> 00:44:25,100
parapsychology I think that is what

1006
00:44:29,590 --> 00:44:27,860
parapsychology is and I think for that

1007
00:44:31,060 --> 00:44:29,600
reason it's kind of quite instructive it

1008
00:44:33,610 --> 00:44:31,070
tells us about the limits of the

1009
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:33,620
scientific method now that's not to say

1010
00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:34,970
obviously I'm still a huge fan of the

1011
00:44:39,190 --> 00:44:37,280
scientific method it's the best way we

1012
00:44:40,930 --> 00:44:39,200
have it's like Churchill said about

1013
00:44:42,820 --> 00:44:40,940
democracy you know it's okay it's

1014
00:44:45,310 --> 00:44:42,830
rubbish but it's the best system we've

1015
00:44:47,170 --> 00:44:45,320
got it and I feel very much that that

1016
00:44:48,460 --> 00:44:47,180
about where it comes to trying to

1017
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:48,470
determine the truth about the way things

1018
00:44:53,980 --> 00:44:51,650
are science is without doubt the best

1019
00:44:57,460 --> 00:44:53,990
way to try and do it but scientists are

1020
00:44:59,580 --> 00:44:57,470
human therefore it's not perfect do you

1021
00:45:01,720 --> 00:44:59,590
think that applies particularly to

1022
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:01,730
social sciences because we are

1023
00:45:07,060 --> 00:45:04,610
intimately humans I mean I a couple of

1024
00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:07,070
years ago did some I did a segment for

1025
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:10,510
for skeptics on podcast about economics

1026
00:45:15,630 --> 00:45:13,930
and I spoke to economists and it was

1027
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:15,640
quite astonishing to you speak to

1028
00:45:20,430 --> 00:45:17,890
economists and I think I spoke to about

1029
00:45:22,380 --> 00:45:20,440
six or seven of them mostly academics

1030
00:45:24,780 --> 00:45:22,390
and all but one basically said that

1031
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:24,790
economics is rubbish at predicting

1032
00:45:27,390 --> 00:45:25,690
anything they're they're very good at

1033
00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:27,400
post dictating yeah you know explaining

1034
00:45:30,660 --> 00:45:29,110
the past they're very good at a

1035
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:30,670
particular views are completely

1036
00:45:35,580 --> 00:45:33,490
completely useless yeah um do you feel

1037
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:35,590
that any because it is to a certain

1038
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:38,650
extent it's not a certain extent it is a

1039
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:40,570
social science there is a little bit of

1040
00:45:44,310 --> 00:45:42,490
other other things in economy in

1041
00:45:46,050 --> 00:45:44,320
economics but do you feel that that's

1042
00:45:48,420 --> 00:45:46,060
the case because humans are so complex

1043
00:45:51,660 --> 00:45:48,430
in human society is even more complex

1044
00:45:53,220 --> 00:45:51,670
than individual humans that it is that

1045
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:53,230
those weaknesses are basically a result

1046
00:46:00,890 --> 00:45:55,570
of that I think it cuts both ways in in

1047
00:46:03,780 --> 00:46:00,900
the sense that if you tend to find the

1048
00:46:05,910 --> 00:46:03,790
parapsychologists psychologists are more

1049
00:46:08,250 --> 00:46:05,920
aware of these kinds of issues these

1050
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:08,260
kind of methodological issues that

1051
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:11,290
involve unintended bias on the part of

1052
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:13,090
the experimenter and so on and so forth

1053
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:16,510
we are kind of used to that because our

1054
00:46:22,410 --> 00:46:19,330
data is messy it's complicated it's

1055
00:46:24,870 --> 00:46:22,420
messy you have to kind of make decisions

1056
00:46:26,850 --> 00:46:24,880
about you know should I or should I

1057
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:26,860
include that data point or shouldn't I

1058
00:46:29,820 --> 00:46:28,330
you know that wasn't that the guy who

1059
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:29,830
maybe was when we were running

1060
00:46:33,390 --> 00:46:31,330
experiment seemed to not quite

1061
00:46:35,790 --> 00:46:33,400
understand the instructions over but now

1062
00:46:37,140 --> 00:46:35,800
it's messy messy messy whereas in the

1063
00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:37,150
Natural Sciences other thing you need to

1064
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:38,710
worry about that very much at all you

1065
00:46:42,090 --> 00:46:39,850
know if you're a chemist you are day to

1066
00:46:45,450 --> 00:46:42,100
be you get c plus D every single time

1067
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:45,460
you do it you know but that the drawback

1068
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:47,890
there can be that within the natural

1069
00:46:53,390 --> 00:46:50,110
sciences because of this complete almost

1070
00:46:56,810 --> 00:46:53,400
lack of awareness of the possibility of

1071
00:46:59,840 --> 00:46:56,820
subjective bias coming in you can get

1072
00:47:02,100 --> 00:46:59,850
episodes like the benveniste episode

1073
00:47:04,140 --> 00:47:02,110
because they just simply were not aware

1074
00:47:06,990 --> 00:47:04,150
they were so naive in terms of these

1075
00:47:08,610 --> 00:47:07,000
other issues so it kind of cuts both

1076
00:47:10,410 --> 00:47:08,620
ways so just for those who don't know

1077
00:47:11,850 --> 00:47:10,420
basically they were choosing the results

1078
00:47:12,810 --> 00:47:11,860
they wanted but they were not aware that

1079
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:12,820
they would just there were the base

1080
00:47:16,170 --> 00:47:14,770
right now it was busily discarding the

1081
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:16,180
unwanted results but they were not doing

1082
00:47:19,830 --> 00:47:17,530
it consciously I mean gonna say

1083
00:47:22,350 --> 00:47:19,840
illustrator anecdotal I know but many

1084
00:47:24,660 --> 00:47:22,360
many years ago my partner at the time

1085
00:47:26,580 --> 00:47:24,670
was doing an internship was in a medical

1086
00:47:29,210 --> 00:47:26,590
degree at her to did an intercalated

1087
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:29,220
year in a department of pharmacology and

1088
00:47:33,540 --> 00:47:32,410
she would tell me about the the way that

1089
00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:33,550
they were there on the lab to do their

1090
00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:35,440
experiments and they'd be plotting their

1091
00:47:38,700 --> 00:47:36,940
data points and of course they'd usually

1092
00:47:40,830 --> 00:47:38,710
come out on nice straight lines which

1093
00:47:43,170 --> 00:47:40,840
you never get inside ecology though but

1094
00:47:44,820 --> 00:47:43,180
occasionally the be a data point that

1095
00:47:46,260 --> 00:47:44,830
which was way off and they're just

1096
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:46,270
saying elements of the dirty test tube

1097
00:47:48,690 --> 00:47:47,290
and they're just rub it out so you know

1098
00:47:50,790 --> 00:47:48,700
they wouldn't even mention that that

1099
00:47:54,510 --> 00:47:50,800
data point had occurred now in

1100
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:54,520
psychology ideally would not do that I

1101
00:47:59,790 --> 00:47:56,410
mean and again what I'm saying is that

1102
00:48:01,410 --> 00:47:59,800
on the one hand ideally you mention

1103
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:01,420
exactly what you've done exactly what

1104
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:03,010
you found you justify every decision

1105
00:48:06,540 --> 00:48:04,450
you've made for the data analysis et

1106
00:48:08,730 --> 00:48:06,550
cetera et cetera in practice sometimes I

1107
00:48:09,870 --> 00:48:08,740
admit that doesn't happen you don't but

1108
00:48:11,670 --> 00:48:09,880
sometimes you wouldn't know that you've

1109
00:48:14,310 --> 00:48:11,680
actually raised your eyebrows well yeah

1110
00:48:17,850 --> 00:48:14,320
exactly it's kind of it's it's one of

1111
00:48:18,780 --> 00:48:17,860
those things that ever say I think

1112
00:48:22,730 --> 00:48:18,790
there's that there's a greater

1113
00:48:26,670 --> 00:48:22,740
appreciation of like the underlying

1114
00:48:29,490 --> 00:48:26,680
assumptions regarding the methodology

1115
00:48:31,980 --> 00:48:29,500
and when something is justified and when

1116
00:48:34,140 --> 00:48:31,990
it's not maybe within the messy social

1117
00:48:36,870 --> 00:48:34,150
sciences because yes I generally you

1118
00:48:39,150 --> 00:48:36,880
don't need it in in most areas of

1119
00:48:42,150 --> 00:48:39,160
chemistry or physics and so on but of

1120
00:48:43,620 --> 00:48:42,160
course you find that I mean you go into

1121
00:48:46,410 --> 00:48:43,630
some areas particularly very very

1122
00:48:48,690 --> 00:48:46,420
theoretical physics and well you know

1123
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:48,700
all everything just changes i mean i

1124
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:49,930
don't know i don't know much about

1125
00:48:54,660 --> 00:48:51,850
string theory but i understand it's very

1126
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:54,670
very difficult to test experimental it i

1127
00:48:58,590 --> 00:48:57,040
think one of the issues of us fear is

1128
00:49:00,420 --> 00:48:58,600
that they do not occur to actually

1129
00:49:02,550 --> 00:49:00,430
currently have a test for it absolutely

1130
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:02,560
so where do where do where does that

1131
00:49:07,050 --> 00:49:03,970
leave us you know and i'd say at least

1132
00:49:08,670 --> 00:49:07,060
psychology is probably preferably that

1133
00:49:10,290 --> 00:49:08,680
said but i mean in terms of the whole

1134
00:49:14,100 --> 00:49:10,300
kind of philosophy of science type

1135
00:49:16,530 --> 00:49:14,110
things you know some some areas it's

1136
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:16,540
very straightforward replicability is

1137
00:49:21,180 --> 00:49:19,690
not an issue the data generally is very

1138
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:21,190
very nice and clean but the people in

1139
00:49:24,690 --> 00:49:22,960
those areas are likely to be quite naive

1140
00:49:28,140 --> 00:49:24,700
about these kind of areas about

1141
00:49:29,940 --> 00:49:28,150
subjective buyers we for all our kind of

1142
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:29,950
better understanding of that we also

1143
00:49:33,810 --> 00:49:32,170
have very very messy data and that the

1144
00:49:34,769 --> 00:49:33,820
difficulty is that sometimes we may then

1145
00:49:37,589 --> 00:49:34,779
say we've

1146
00:49:39,269 --> 00:49:37,599
really effect when we haven't so one

1147
00:49:41,579 --> 00:49:39,279
final question and that is to do with

1148
00:49:42,959 --> 00:49:41,589
the future I'm going to ask you to move

1149
00:49:45,599 --> 00:49:42,969
into the future and report what you'd

1150
00:49:47,339 --> 00:49:45,609
seen they're allowing a great believer

1151
00:49:48,749 --> 00:49:47,349
in precognition as you know having an

1152
00:49:51,179 --> 00:49:48,759
having had a failed replication of the

1153
00:49:54,059 --> 00:49:51,189
dems wonderful experiment and yes which

1154
00:49:56,309 --> 00:49:54,069
was never know it was we did get a post

1155
00:49:58,349 --> 00:49:56,319
it was in plus one over and in fact

1156
00:49:59,699 --> 00:49:58,359
we've got a thousand a thousand views a

1157
00:50:01,349 --> 00:49:59,709
day at one point we were getting for

1158
00:50:02,729 --> 00:50:01,359
that paper I said no it actually the now

1159
00:50:04,469 --> 00:50:02,739
that you've mentioned it you have you

1160
00:50:05,849 --> 00:50:04,479
have to actually maybe say woody okay

1161
00:50:10,620 --> 00:50:05,859
what what what Daryl BEM did he

1162
00:50:12,779 --> 00:50:10,630
published he published a paper in a

1163
00:50:14,429 --> 00:50:12,789
mainstream psychology journal journal of

1164
00:50:15,779 --> 00:50:14,439
personality and social psychology very

1165
00:50:18,269 --> 00:50:15,789
high impact journal very well respected

1166
00:50:19,919 --> 00:50:18,279
journal Daryl BEM is a professor of

1167
00:50:22,919 --> 00:50:19,929
psychology at Cornell very well

1168
00:50:25,679 --> 00:50:22,929
respected academic known to be very

1169
00:50:27,149 --> 00:50:25,689
sympathetic towards parapsychology it's

1170
00:50:29,729 --> 00:50:27,159
a series of nine experiment over a

1171
00:50:31,529 --> 00:50:29,739
thousand participants and essentially it

1172
00:50:33,390 --> 00:50:31,539
was apparently presenting very strong

1173
00:50:35,789 --> 00:50:33,400
evidence in favor of the idea that

1174
00:50:38,909 --> 00:50:35,799
people could sense future events before

1175
00:50:41,749 --> 00:50:38,919
they take in place and to Ben's credit

1176
00:50:43,620 --> 00:50:41,759
he did actually appeal for other

1177
00:50:46,769 --> 00:50:43,630
psychologists to try to replicate the

1178
00:50:49,759 --> 00:50:46,779
results so myself Richard Wiseman and

1179
00:50:52,319 --> 00:50:49,769
Stuart Richie decided would do just that

1180
00:50:54,989 --> 00:50:52,329
we each decided that we would do an

1181
00:50:56,699 --> 00:50:54,999
independent replication of Ben's

1182
00:50:59,549 --> 00:50:56,709
experiment nine which had the biggest

1183
00:51:01,079 --> 00:50:59,559
effect size and without going into

1184
00:51:03,539 --> 00:51:01,089
detail suffice it to say we didn't

1185
00:51:05,099 --> 00:51:03,549
replicate we wrote the paper a trigger

1186
00:51:06,659 --> 00:51:05,109
the study but not the results we

1187
00:51:08,249 --> 00:51:06,669
replicated yeah we replicated the study

1188
00:51:11,549 --> 00:51:08,259
methodology we did not get the results

1189
00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:11,559
that then reported exactly and we wrote

1190
00:51:15,689 --> 00:51:13,839
this herb we sent it into the same

1191
00:51:17,359 --> 00:51:15,699
journal that had published bemz very

1192
00:51:21,029 --> 00:51:17,369
controversial findings that received

1193
00:51:23,039 --> 00:51:21,039
international attention although world's

1194
00:51:25,949 --> 00:51:23,049
mainstream science media who picked up

1195
00:51:28,380 --> 00:51:25,959
on this and runs on mainstream in not

1196
00:51:30,299 --> 00:51:28,390
i'm not so made yeah they love shortly

1197
00:51:34,890 --> 00:51:30,309
baby male had so i think absolutely yeah

1198
00:51:36,809 --> 00:51:34,900
but you know Eve even even kind of more

1199
00:51:37,979 --> 00:51:36,819
serious sensible sensible newspapers

1200
00:51:40,199 --> 00:51:37,989
were kind of say oh this is really

1201
00:51:42,989 --> 00:51:40,209
interesting which it would be that which

1202
00:51:45,209 --> 00:51:42,999
if it was a replicable effect yeah we

1203
00:51:47,459 --> 00:51:45,219
did not manage to replicate his results

1204
00:51:48,070 --> 00:51:47,469
we sent our paper into the same journal

1205
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:48,080
that I'd public

1206
00:51:52,990 --> 00:51:50,240
should the paper that caused so much

1207
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:53,000
controversy and the editor simply

1208
00:51:57,610 --> 00:51:55,130
rejected it without even sending out for

1209
00:51:59,380 --> 00:51:57,620
peer review and we thought this was

1210
00:52:00,760 --> 00:51:59,390
wrong but he would not be swayed we got

1211
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:00,770
the same treatment from another couple

1212
00:52:05,260 --> 00:52:04,010
of high impact journals which shows that

1213
00:52:07,330 --> 00:52:05,270
there is this bias there is a

1214
00:52:09,850 --> 00:52:07,340
publication bias in mainstream science

1215
00:52:11,590 --> 00:52:09,860
against negative against against results

1216
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:11,600
on the one hand negative results they

1217
00:52:14,770 --> 00:52:13,250
don't want to publish results a

1218
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:14,780
non-significant and on the other hand

1219
00:52:20,260 --> 00:52:16,850
results that just for experiments as

1220
00:52:22,990 --> 00:52:20,270
straight replications of a reported

1221
00:52:25,630 --> 00:52:23,000
effect and we think that in this case I

1222
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:25,640
mean if this effect were real it would

1223
00:52:32,260 --> 00:52:28,730
demand a kind of complete radical

1224
00:52:34,060 --> 00:52:32,270
overhaul of physics yeah so it's really

1225
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:34,070
important it cannot be treated in this

1226
00:52:36,940 --> 00:52:35,810
way that you publish the original paper

1227
00:52:39,010 --> 00:52:36,950
and then say that's right we're not

1228
00:52:40,770 --> 00:52:39,020
doing after that anyway long story short

1229
00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:40,780
we did get it published in PLoS ONE

1230
00:52:45,850 --> 00:52:43,520
ultimate later we did get managed to

1231
00:52:47,770 --> 00:52:45,860
generate a lot of media interest in our

1232
00:52:50,580 --> 00:52:47,780
failed replication so that was a result

1233
00:52:52,870 --> 00:52:50,590
but it fed in then to this ongoing

1234
00:52:54,940 --> 00:52:52,880
discussion and controversy about

1235
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:54,950
replication issues in soccer one of the

1236
00:52:59,260 --> 00:52:57,290
benefits obviously of policy and in plus

1237
00:53:01,750 --> 00:52:59,270
plus one is that it's open access

1238
00:53:04,810 --> 00:53:01,760
exactly instances so anybody can

1239
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:04,820
download that paper which I so back to

1240
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:08,720
my question earlier but so the

1241
00:53:11,860 --> 00:53:10,970
specifically Chris Rose the what is

1242
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:11,870
called the Society for psychical

1243
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:14,690
Research Society say society psychic

1244
00:53:21,190 --> 00:53:18,110
psychic or psychic research has has

1245
00:53:24,220 --> 00:53:21,200
existed for a long time it's 1882 yeah

1246
00:53:26,290 --> 00:53:24,230
so far that they haven't really I mean

1247
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:26,300
they haven't had magnificent results you

1248
00:53:30,460 --> 00:53:28,370
know nothing groundbreaking I said yeah

1249
00:53:32,590 --> 00:53:30,470
in that time no I would say that heaven

1250
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:32,600
haven't had any positive results but

1251
00:53:36,430 --> 00:53:34,610
nothing that was grant really truly

1252
00:53:40,420 --> 00:53:36,440
groundbreaking they would expect if

1253
00:53:41,770 --> 00:53:40,430
something was a paranormal where do you

1254
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:41,780
think they're going do you think they're

1255
00:53:47,500 --> 00:53:45,920
going anywhere and specifically let's

1256
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:47,510
let us see him for a moment that that

1257
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:49,730
this continues to be the way you know

1258
00:53:54,070 --> 00:53:52,490
minor positive results not replicable

1259
00:53:56,980 --> 00:53:54,080
and all that do you think they will ever

1260
00:53:59,200 --> 00:53:56,990
stop I think that's the latter day when

1261
00:54:01,150 --> 00:53:59,210
the Society for psychical research was

1262
00:54:04,579 --> 00:54:01,160
formed in eighteen eighty two

1263
00:54:06,650 --> 00:54:04,589
it was in response to really a couple of

1264
00:54:09,950 --> 00:54:06,660
things that were around at a time one

1265
00:54:13,069 --> 00:54:09,960
was that Darwin had published on the

1266
00:54:16,250 --> 00:54:13,079
origin of species and that raised

1267
00:54:18,380 --> 00:54:16,260
serious issues for scientists who were

1268
00:54:20,420 --> 00:54:18,390
Christians the clear implication was

1269
00:54:21,559 --> 00:54:20,430
well hang on when did we get the soul

1270
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:21,569
that he come along with the opposable

1271
00:54:27,220 --> 00:54:24,410
thumb well that was down there and

1272
00:54:30,579 --> 00:54:27,230
secondly it was at the height of the

1273
00:54:32,599 --> 00:54:30,589
Victorian crazed the séances and

1274
00:54:35,329 --> 00:54:32,609
obviously been poor folders this is

1275
00:54:38,569 --> 00:54:35,339
proof of life after death the SPR was

1276
00:54:41,839 --> 00:54:38,579
founded mainly with a view to using

1277
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:41,849
science to prove that survival

1278
00:54:45,980 --> 00:54:44,010
post-mortem survival was a reality and

1279
00:54:47,990 --> 00:54:45,990
they thought they'd do this rapidly

1280
00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:48,000
maybe 10 20 years and that would be here

1281
00:54:54,140 --> 00:54:50,880
are we done and dusted you know and a

1282
00:54:55,579 --> 00:54:54,150
few years later the American Society for

1283
00:54:56,930 --> 00:54:55,589
psychical research was founded again

1284
00:54:58,400 --> 00:54:56,940
with this very similar aims William

1285
00:55:00,620 --> 00:54:58,410
James the great William James run the

1286
00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:00,630
founding members and a lot of the people

1287
00:55:04,940 --> 00:55:02,640
who did found these societies and ran

1288
00:55:06,650 --> 00:55:04,950
them were the best thinkers of the day

1289
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:06,660
you know they were really high level

1290
00:55:11,269 --> 00:55:09,210
intellectuals and they really work yeah

1291
00:55:13,789 --> 00:55:11,279
they weren't I'm gonna just cranks by

1292
00:55:16,190 --> 00:55:13,799
any means now the society has been going

1293
00:55:17,660 --> 00:55:16,200
now obviously for a very long time the

1294
00:55:19,990 --> 00:55:17,670
bin parapsychology has gone through

1295
00:55:22,430 --> 00:55:20,000
various changes and transformations

1296
00:55:26,029 --> 00:55:22,440
Chris row made the point today and he's

1297
00:55:27,349 --> 00:55:26,039
right that the amount of a number of

1298
00:55:30,650 --> 00:55:27,359
person hours that have gone into

1299
00:55:35,870 --> 00:55:30,660
parapsychological research is negligible

1300
00:55:38,420 --> 00:55:35,880
compared to mainstream science one point

1301
00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:38,430
I would make in reply to that is that an

1302
00:55:43,099 --> 00:55:41,250
AMA list excit has been going for it

1303
00:55:45,380 --> 00:55:43,109
even shorter period of time with even

1304
00:55:48,319 --> 00:55:45,390
fewer people but within that time we

1305
00:55:50,569 --> 00:55:48,329
have got a number of reliable replicable

1306
00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:50,579
results in terms of trying to explain

1307
00:55:56,210 --> 00:55:52,559
ostensibly paranormal experiences in

1308
00:55:59,120 --> 00:55:56,220
non-paranormal terms so yeah I think we

1309
00:56:01,309 --> 00:55:59,130
should by now i have really expected to

1310
00:56:03,170 --> 00:56:01,319
see a bit more progress if there really

1311
00:56:04,819 --> 00:56:03,180
was something and the idea now having

1312
00:56:07,089 --> 00:56:04,829
said all that I think there are very

1313
00:56:09,710 --> 00:56:07,099
good reasons to believe that

1314
00:56:12,499 --> 00:56:09,720
parapsychology will just continue with

1315
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:12,509
the past pattern of a series of false

1316
00:56:17,109 --> 00:56:13,490
dawns

1317
00:56:18,490 --> 00:56:17,119
that because of their kind of factors

1318
00:56:21,070 --> 00:56:18,500
we've been talking about questionable

1319
00:56:22,990 --> 00:56:21,080
research practices very occasional for

1320
00:56:24,670 --> 00:56:23,000
audits is only occasional but Cajun

1321
00:56:26,590 --> 00:56:24,680
probably wouldn't be much more fraud

1322
00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:26,600
there than another area I don't support

1323
00:56:30,430 --> 00:56:28,250
in science it's just fraud in science

1324
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:30,440
generally you know and it happens it's a

1325
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:31,970
part of human nature is something

1326
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:33,650
obviously we need to try and stamp out

1327
00:56:37,450 --> 00:56:35,210
and control but it's there we need to

1328
00:56:39,220 --> 00:56:37,460
recognize that and all these other

1329
00:56:41,530 --> 00:56:39,230
factors that will lead to the occasional

1330
00:56:43,900 --> 00:56:41,540
spurious Lee significant result will

1331
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:43,910
mean that there'll be enough to

1332
00:56:48,490 --> 00:56:46,970
encourage people like Chris Rogan but

1333
00:56:50,980 --> 00:56:48,500
with whom have a great deal of respect

1334
00:56:52,330 --> 00:56:50,990
for chris to think yeah I think there

1335
00:56:53,950 --> 00:56:52,340
might be something it's just around the

1336
00:56:55,750 --> 00:56:53,960
next corner it's just around the next

1337
00:56:58,480 --> 00:56:55,760
corner and I don't think we'll ever get

1338
00:57:00,100 --> 00:56:58,490
there but again hey I could be wrong you

1339
00:57:03,030 --> 00:57:00,110
know if the parapsychologist can come up

1340
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:03,040
with a reliable replicable robust

1341
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:06,290
demonstration that psy is real well i'll

1342
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:07,610
be a bit embarrassed but i'll get over

1343
00:57:11,620 --> 00:57:09,410
that you know it'd be a great advance in

1344
00:57:12,810 --> 00:57:11,630
science i'm not that in the house on it

1345
00:57:15,010 --> 00:57:12,820
though and i'm not holding my breath

1346
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:15,020
Chris friend thank you very much thank

1347
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:33,170
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1348
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zone and I'm certainly looking forward

1349
00:57:39,830 --> 00:57:36,780
to meeting some of you at the amazing

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00:57:43,700 --> 00:57:39,840
meeting coming up in july this year in

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00:57:47,540 --> 00:57:43,710
Las Vegas more information at WWE r and

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00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:47,550
org it'll be great to catch up with well

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00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:49,890
people I only see once a year and of

1354
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:53,250
course James Randi himself and what a

1355
00:57:58,130 --> 00:57:55,200
lineup they have for the amazing meeting

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00:58:00,620 --> 00:57:58,140
this year well what can I say it's

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amazing and thank you again to those

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00:58:04,730 --> 00:58:02,370
people who chip in to the skeptic zone

1359
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:04,740
most less than a dollar a week some a

1360
00:58:10,790 --> 00:58:07,770
little bit more and some even send or

1361
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:10,800
quite a bit more money our way to help

1362
00:58:15,590 --> 00:58:13,680
us keep producing the show it's very

1363
00:58:17,890 --> 00:58:15,600
much appreciated and this simply

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00:58:20,180 --> 00:58:17,900
wouldn't be a show without that support

1365
00:58:22,370 --> 00:58:20,190
but for this week this is Richard

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00:58:28,310 --> 00:58:22,380
Saunders signing off from Sydney

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00:58:33,020 --> 00:58:28,320
Australia you've been listening to the

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00:58:36,860 --> 00:58:33,030
skeptic zone visit her website at www